Can we talk about menopause in the office yet, and what are menopause benefits?

[00:00:01] Okay, I am standing outside a theatre about to go in to see Samantha Bee, who has a new play, I guess, called How to Survive Menopause.

[00:00:14] I want to know the answer to that question, obviously. Samantha Bee is a famous comedian, if you've never heard of her, and I'm a big fan of hers.

[00:00:22] So let's see how it goes. But you know there's a bunch of women standing outside the theatre here,

[00:00:28] and I might walk around and talk to people and see what their experiences have been of menopause,

[00:00:35] and also how we regard menopause at work, inside companies, inside offices and workplaces,

[00:00:42] because I think there's a lot out there right now about, yeah, everybody's comfortable talking about menopause out loud,

[00:00:49] but I do think there's one place that's really hard to talk about menopause, and that is at work.

[00:00:55] So let me just go around and ask people what they think. So tell me about your experience of menopause.

[00:01:04] I don't actually know whether I'm in menopause or not in menopause, I think I'm perimenopausal.

[00:01:10] There's very little clarity or guidance, I think, in the world about it, and even from doctors.

[00:01:18] Like, they can't really tell you, are you in it? Is it happening? Is it not happening?

[00:01:21] It's like, well, maybe.

[00:01:25] I think a lot of people feel the same way.

[00:01:27] But what about, tell me about in your workplace. Do people talk about it?

[00:01:32] Can it be talked about? Would you ever feel comfortable saying, I think I'm in perimenopause?

[00:01:38] Oh, definitely. I work with a lot of women in my age group, sort of middle-aged, late 40s, 50s, and absolutely we chat about it.

[00:01:49] I don't think I would say it in mixed company, as it were, right?

[00:01:54] But sort of one-on-one with women that I'm friendly with in the workplace, absolutely.

[00:02:00] And it's always like an instant bonding conversation.

[00:02:04] I kind of feel like women issues are sort of one of those things where we grew up and we were supposed to be very quiet about it.

[00:02:10] We weren't supposed to talk about it. It was something that was very hidden.

[00:02:13] And since I grew up in that environment, I still feel that way in my adult life.

[00:02:16] Do you think things are changing now, though?

[00:02:18] When it comes to this particular subject, I don't know.

[00:02:20] I feel like it's still sort of like, you know, it's disgusting. It's not something we talk about. It's very private.

[00:02:25] We share it with our female friends, but I don't feel like I've ever felt comfortable.

[00:02:30] I mean, in my intimate relationships, sure, but even then I felt like it was a very limited topic.

[00:02:35] So, I don't know. I don't know that I do think it's changing.

[00:02:39] Yeah, interesting.

[00:02:40] Tell me about your experience of menopause at work as such, in the workplace, in the office, amongst your colleagues.

[00:02:46] Well, I think we're actually in a really interesting time when it comes to menopause in the workplace.

[00:02:50] For the first time in any century at any given time in history, there will be five generations in the workforce.

[00:02:59] And Generation X right now is really at the most senior level or C-level positions.

[00:03:05] There are four out of ten women thinking about leaving work because of menopausal symptoms and one out of ten that does.

[00:03:12] And those stats are stats that can be used against us.

[00:03:15] However, because we are such valuable employees with so much knowledge, it is actually in companies' best interest to find a way to work with us in terms of menopause instead of without us.

[00:03:28] And the same way that we saw so many improvements when it came to taking care of children or breastfeeding in the partum phase of our life or the pregnancy phase of our lives, I think that we are making strides towards figuring out what would be best.

[00:03:42] Whether there should be mental health days for menopause.

[00:03:44] Whether hormones should be covered by insurance.

[00:03:46] And those are discussions that companies, big companies, are now starting to have because of so many advocates in this space.

[00:03:57] This is Overlooked and I'm Golda Arthur.

[00:03:59] The Menopause Show was great, by the way.

[00:04:01] And there's more about Samantha Bee in the newsletter this week, so I hope you're signed up.

[00:04:06] When I was going through perimenopause, I was leading projects and teams at a big media company.

[00:04:13] And I was bossing like the best of them.

[00:04:16] And as a boss, there was no way that I would say out loud at a meeting with people who reported to me that I might be having some perimenopause symptoms.

[00:04:27] And that's if I even connect to the difficulties I was going through at the time with perimenopause.

[00:04:33] And that was only five years ago.

[00:04:35] Things are changing.

[00:04:37] In some companies, the workplace culture is becoming more human.

[00:04:41] You can talk about menopause out loud.

[00:04:43] And those companies are probably also the ones offering something new.

[00:04:48] Menopause benefits as part of their employee package.

[00:04:52] And it makes sense.

[00:04:54] If maternity and paternity and fertility all get offered as benefits in your job, then why not menopause?

[00:05:03] So on this episode of Overlooked, I'm talking to two companies about menopause benefits at work.

[00:05:10] That's all coming up after this quick break.

[00:05:15] Hi, I'm Dr. Sarah Finlison, a gyne-oncologist with the Gynecologic Cancer Initiative.

[00:05:21] The Gynecologic Cancer Initiative is a British Columbia-based team committed to transforming research and helping women understand, prevent, and survive gynecologic cancers.

[00:05:33] From precise diagnostics to innovative prevention strategies and groundbreaking clinical trials, we are already driving change.

[00:05:43] I'm Joan from Suri, BC.

[00:05:44] I'm a Stage 4 uterine cancer survivor.

[00:05:47] I'm very privileged to be able to work with the GCI to help other women through research programs.

[00:05:53] It took nearly a year for my wife to be diagnosed with Stage 4 high-grade serous ovarian cancer.

[00:06:00] With GCI's ongoing work and assessments, testing, and raising awareness of gyne cancers,

[00:06:06] I hope physicians will prioritize the possibility of gyne cancer during patient assessments to improve diagnostic times.

[00:06:14] Discover how you can join our mission and be part of the change at gynecancerinitiative.ca.

[00:06:26] What do you want to do next?

[00:06:29] I'm Patsy Day, co-host of The Wobbly Middle, a podcast about women navigating the wobbly middle of their careers.

[00:06:35] We speak with women who've made bold moves, like a lawyer turned professional chef and a midwife, now femtech innovator.

[00:06:43] Their stories show us that our midlife is full of possibility.

[00:06:47] If you're in the middle of your own wobble, let's figure it out together.

[00:06:50] Subscribe to The Wobbly Middle wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:06:57] This is Sarah Shepard from a company called Previa Health.

[00:07:01] I work in the human resources department supporting the physicians.

[00:07:04] So our company provides technology, analysis, all kinds of support to those practices so that they can stay focused on the medicines.

[00:07:13] Sarah is head of people operations at Previa, which has 900 employees.

[00:07:19] 73% are women and most of their employees work from home.

[00:07:23] We stop talking about women's health when it's not about fertility.

[00:07:28] When you've finished having children, how are we continuing that journey?

[00:07:32] And so we frequently talk about meeting doctors where they are.

[00:07:34] That's a big part of what we do.

[00:07:36] But in our HR team, it's meeting employees where they are.

[00:07:39] You know, it starts out as you talk to one woman who's like, look, I'm going through menopause and I might need to take disability to deal with it.

[00:07:48] That's not just her experience.

[00:07:51] It's her experience.

[00:07:52] There's people in her family, whoever she's supporting.

[00:07:54] And there's so much more that everything she's experiencing, it's not just her experience.

[00:08:00] Of course, we want to serve her.

[00:08:02] But if she feels like she can't serve her family, we need to help in that regard as well.

[00:08:08] Mm hmm.

[00:08:09] So why does this make good business sense for Previa Health?

[00:08:14] That example I gave you earlier of someone saying to me, I might need to take disability leave because I'm dealing with the like the hormone changes and everything.

[00:08:24] I can't focus and I've not found medication or support that works for me.

[00:08:30] I.

[00:08:31] This helps us keep people at work.

[00:08:34] Benefits like this can give people the support network that is can be difficult to find.

[00:08:39] You know, it's I have a wonderful PCP.

[00:08:42] I go to him all the time, but I've never asked him about my my cycle or should I be worried that this is a hormone issue?

[00:08:51] It doesn't feel natural to me to I don't know how much he knows.

[00:08:55] It's I need a partner.

[00:08:57] And so that's that's I think why we were really that's what we wanted.

[00:09:04] Yeah, I think in Europe and I'm thinking about the UK in particular, they're a little bit further ahead in terms of offering benefits and that kind of thing.

[00:09:12] But it seems like the US is is catching up because at the end of the day, you know, some of the symptoms of menopause are so powerful that they 100 percent get in the way of productivity.

[00:09:25] Right.

[00:09:25] Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[00:09:28] I would and I I look at.

[00:09:31] I look at this benefit is like sure it's it's good for the business because it keeps people at work.

[00:09:36] It gives them the support they need, but it.

[00:09:39] It doesn't hurt things like retention.

[00:09:41] It doesn't hurt engagement when people feel like they say I need help and you can give them something back.

[00:09:49] Certainly, I can say join our women in leadership group join these other support groups.

[00:09:54] But, you know, I say to employees all the time.

[00:09:56] I know and I've just started talking about menopause and women's issues during.

[00:10:02] Big meetings, right?

[00:10:03] I I'm not going to be shy about it.

[00:10:05] I know you don't want to talk to me if you're about to have a hysterectomy.

[00:10:08] I'm you don't want to talk to your HR person about this incredibly personal thing.

[00:10:13] So we want to give them all the avenues available to get the support they need.

[00:10:18] It's a it's a no brainer.

[00:10:20] And when you feel supported like that, the retention goes up.

[00:10:24] Tenure goes up.

[00:10:25] Engagement goes up because people are distracted.

[00:10:28] And that's it's a huge plus to say, like, all right, you've got something.

[00:10:32] Let's go.

[00:10:33] Let's go get it.

[00:10:33] Yeah, that's great.

[00:10:34] That's great to hear.

[00:10:35] Well, I want to bring us to a close by asking you, what do you think has been the most overlooked thing in terms of this story of, you know, companies offering menopause benefits?

[00:10:46] And where is that inequality felt most deeply?

[00:10:50] I think when when I look at menopause in the workplace, the thing that is just most glaring to me now is that.

[00:10:58] We don't talk about it.

[00:10:59] And if there's if you feel that you can't afford to offer a benefit, everyone can afford to have empathetic, thoughtful conversation.

[00:11:09] And if we're approaching this as how can I help you?

[00:11:13] What is what's preventing you from being successful and not asking it in a need to do your job, but I care about you.

[00:11:22] That will give you if it's a return of goodwill, just that employee trusting you more and coming to you next time.

[00:11:29] It could start that snowball rolling downhill where you're given the opportunity to respond thoughtfully to their needs.

[00:11:36] And so I would just start talking about yourself.

[00:11:42] It starts with your own vulnerability.

[00:11:44] And so I like the example I give my my my managers is I'm really open about my need for therapy when I was in when I'm not when I'm going to my appointment.

[00:11:55] Hey, I've got to head to my therapy appointment.

[00:11:57] I'll be back in about an hour.

[00:11:58] And I had a small team, but every one of my team has started to own up to, hey, I need a mental health day.

[00:12:05] I'll be back the next day.

[00:12:06] I'm going to my therapy appointment.

[00:12:08] I'll be back in an hour because it's normal.

[00:12:12] And if it's normal, people get support.

[00:12:14] They feel seen, supported.

[00:12:17] You can start with just a conversation.

[00:12:19] So and as you see that and as you see those benefits coming, trust increasing people being more willing to collaborate with you and together on finding solutions, you'll find more business opportunity to say this benefit will save us this, this and this.

[00:12:36] So just start having the conversations.

[00:12:38] Don't be afraid if you see a coworker struggling to say, are you OK?

[00:12:41] Like what's going on in your day?

[00:12:44] Can I help?

[00:12:45] You never know when that's going to be the thing that really, really kicks off something big.

[00:12:52] Previa Health works with a company called Maven Clinic to provide those benefits to their employees.

[00:12:59] And Maven provides benefits to about 2000 employers globally.

[00:13:04] At Maven, I talked to Isha Vij, the vice president of employer sales.

[00:13:09] I think for the vast majority of individuals, at least here in the United States, there are no workplace benefits related to menopause.

[00:13:18] Right. But what we've really seen is a changing and evolution of the way that employers are thinking about supporting women that are experiencing symptoms related to menopause.

[00:13:29] And that's because it is becoming a part of the conversation for the first time here after being overlooked for, you know, hundreds of years.

[00:13:42] Let's be honest. What benefits in various workplaces can look like today is things like having flexible working arrangements.

[00:13:52] There's also, even within the workplace, really sort of a more and more thoughtful approach around what does your work environment look like?

[00:14:01] We know, for example, that people experiencing menopause do have periods where they feel hot flashes.

[00:14:09] Right. We talk about that as I think most people know about hot flashes being associated with as a symptom of menopause.

[00:14:16] There are many women in menopause that have shared with me, you know, actually, I end up in sometimes these like freezing spits, too.

[00:14:24] And so thinking even within the workplace, things like how do you have various temperature controlled environments?

[00:14:31] It really comes down to flexibility. And then when you think about an organization and a benefit like Maven, it's giving people access to actually be able to manage those symptoms.

[00:14:42] Right. One is most people that I talk to, at least most of our members tell us.

[00:14:49] It's not something I talk about a lot. You know, I don't really talk about it with my friends.

[00:14:54] I try to talk about it with my OBGYN. A lot of times their OBGYN doesn't really know how to have an informed conversation about it.

[00:15:01] Giving them access to specialists who can actually help them manage their symptoms.

[00:15:06] So with a benefit like Maven, for example, giving employees access to a mental health specialist that can help them manage mood swings they might be experiencing.

[00:15:17] Or giving them access to an OBGYN who truly was appropriately and deeply trained in supporting women with in menopause.

[00:15:27] Giving them access to pelvic floor therapists.

[00:15:31] So it's really about like giving people the agency and the resources to have a conversation about it.

[00:15:38] I mean, that's so interesting. And I want to dig into some of the details around the benefits themselves.

[00:15:43] But just staying in this in this moment here where we can talk broadly about how attitudes towards menopause are changing, especially in the workplace.

[00:15:52] I'm in surgical menopause now. And when I was in perimenopause, I was a senior producer, I was an executive producer.

[00:16:00] And even though it was a senior producer, I was a senior producer, I was a senior producer, I was a senior producer, I was a senior producer, I was a senior producer.

[00:16:07] Or to a meeting I was running, listen, I'm just having a hot flash right now.

[00:16:15] I would have thought at the time that it would impact my credibility as a leader for sure.

[00:16:21] And I'm a Gen Xer, and I think our generation as well wants to deal with this conversation, this public conversation about menopause very differently.

[00:16:33] But I think there's probably a lot of women of my generation, particularly, who still feel this way in the workplace.

[00:16:39] Do you agree?

[00:16:41] Oh, 1000%, right?

[00:16:45] And it's interesting because it's such a long period of time that people go through this.

[00:16:50] So think about fertility or family building.

[00:16:53] This too was a frontier that people didn't feel comfortable talking about.

[00:16:56] And many people still don't, to be honest, right?

[00:16:59] It's not comfortable to say, hey, I'm trying to get pregnant.

[00:17:02] Or, hey, I'm going through IVF.

[00:17:03] Or, hey, I had a miscarriage.

[00:17:07] I think that conversation is evolving and has evolved much further than menopause, than the conversation around menopause.

[00:17:13] And we hear all the time from women saying, I don't feel comfortable yet sharing that I'm experiencing perimenopause or that I'm starting to feel these symptoms.

[00:17:23] And frankly, I don't even know if they're related to menopause.

[00:17:25] I don't know if it's anything related to menopause or just something else going on.

[00:17:30] And we've heard from so many members that just say, it's hard to know when the onset is, right?

[00:17:36] But I think you're right.

[00:17:38] People don't feel comfortable talking about it yet.

[00:17:42] I've seen organizations really evolve on that frontier, though, because one, they're talking about it at that leadership level.

[00:17:51] And I think they're doing it for two reasons.

[00:17:53] One is, there is such a huge part of the working population that is experiencing menopause, right?

[00:18:01] It's going to be over a billion people that are in menopause stage in the next few years at once, right?

[00:18:09] And so it's such an important component of the population that you have to support.

[00:18:13] Two is they're seeing their peers offer more resources and flexibility and support to individuals that are starting to experience these symptoms and will experiencing these symptoms for years and years on end, right?

[00:18:28] And so I think that as organizations start to become more vocal, I think in the cultural zeitgeist, menopause is also having a bit of a moment, right?

[00:18:37] There's celebrities that are talking about menopause, signing up to be ambassadors for various menopause-related treatments or products or whatever it may be.

[00:18:47] And so I think the culture shift is starting to happen.

[00:18:51] But despite being at an incredibly progressive conversation, if people at the leadership level are not talking about it,

[00:18:57] if we're not talking about what employees might need as they're going through these symptoms or experiencing these symptoms,

[00:19:06] like how would anyone know that it is okay to talk about it?

[00:19:10] And so I think my point there is like it's changing, but I'm not, I certainly think we have a long, long ways to go still.

[00:19:17] So let's talk about your employer partners a little bit more there.

[00:19:21] Let's talk about the, I'm curious about the cost-benefit analysis and what's in it for them really?

[00:19:28] I think that the economic sort of analysis there is pretty easy to understand in that one, as I mentioned,

[00:19:37] there's such a significant part of the working population that are going through menopause.

[00:19:44] So the latest data tells us that by 2025, there's going to be over a billion women who are post-menopausal.

[00:19:51] That are, you know, large sort of swaths of these women are a part of that workforce, right?

[00:19:59] And we know too that on an annual basis, there's about $150 billion in lost productivity

[00:20:06] from individuals that have not been able to manage their symptoms well enough

[00:20:12] in order to be as effective and productive in their work environment.

[00:20:17] So that's a really sort of natural way to think about the cost-benefit analysis of bringing on a program like MAVEN.

[00:20:24] And then not, it certainly can, the numbers and sends, you can look at it all day long,

[00:20:29] but I think you would probably agree with me when I say there's a lot of,

[00:20:36] there's a lot of employers that make very large vocal statements

[00:20:41] on their commitment to supporting gender equality at work, right?

[00:20:45] And we see that the focus historically, I heard about it from my friends, you know,

[00:20:53] in recruiting and talent management, achieving that 50-50 gender split,

[00:20:58] particularly in incoming classes at employers.

[00:21:02] But then they see that drop off, right?

[00:21:04] You see, there might be 50-50 split when people are starting at the organization,

[00:21:09] people coming out of college, et cetera.

[00:21:10] But as you rise to the ranks, you don't maintain that 50-50 split.

[00:21:15] And so if you're going to say that you're committed to gender equality,

[00:21:18] and particularly if you're going to say that you're committed to seeing women in senior leadership roles,

[00:21:23] you have to be able to support them to survive, right?

[00:21:29] All of the impact that they might be experiencing from a mental or physical health perspective

[00:21:35] in their oftentimes, like, their most crucial years.

[00:21:40] There's many women who tell us, you know, I was on the verge of leaving

[00:21:44] because I just, I couldn't figure out how to make it work.

[00:21:47] I couldn't figure out how to manage.

[00:21:49] I'm having to call out sick.

[00:21:52] I don't really know how to explain it to people, right?

[00:21:54] And so if people are not able to manage those symptoms at work,

[00:22:01] then how can you expect to be able to retain women in the most senior positions across the board?

[00:22:09] Well, okay, let me sort of draw us to a close by asking you a question I ask all the guests on the show,

[00:22:15] which is what do you think, in relation to the idea of menopause benefits at work

[00:22:21] and how menopause is broadly seen in a corporate and work environment?

[00:22:26] What do you think is the most overlooked aspect of this?

[00:22:31] And where is the inequality felt most deeply?

[00:22:36] Yeah, I think the most overlooked is that there's no space or community for people to talk about it with.

[00:22:43] No one's asking anybody, how are you feeling, right?

[00:22:47] No, I don't, I'm not expecting people to say, like, are you in menopause?

[00:22:50] Are you experiencing symptoms of menopause?

[00:22:52] But how do we start to have the conversation of somebody feeling at least comfort to say,

[00:22:58] hey, I think I'm entering perimenopause or I think I'm starting to experiencing some symptoms

[00:23:03] that are starting to impact me at work.

[00:23:07] Can we talk about it?

[00:23:08] What kinds of resources exist for a person like me?

[00:23:11] We've actually heard that so much from our members of,

[00:23:14] I'm so happy someone cares about me.

[00:23:16] I'm so used to seeing, like, fertility benefits for all of my younger colleagues.

[00:23:20] And I just feel very overlooked.

[00:23:22] I have nobody to talk to.

[00:23:24] That's the thing that we hear most often is, like, nobody to talk to.

[00:23:28] In my opinion, that's the most overlooked of, like, creating real authentic space to talk about it.

[00:23:36] Thank you.

[00:23:38] Well, Isha, thank you so much for joining me on the show.

[00:23:41] I really appreciate your time.

[00:23:42] And this was a great conversation to have.

[00:23:44] I really enjoyed it, too.

[00:23:45] Thank you so much for having me, Golda.

[00:23:50] Overlooked is written and produced by me, Golda Arthur.

[00:23:53] Jessica Martinez-Eos is our producer.

[00:23:56] We're building a community around women's health so that no one is overlooked.

[00:24:00] If you'd like to be part of it, sign up for the newsletter at overlookedpod.com.

[00:24:05] And you can get in touch with us by emailing hello at overlookedpod.com.

[00:24:10] What you hear and read on Overlooked is for general information purposes only

[00:24:15] and represents the opinions of the host and the guests.

[00:24:18] The content on the podcast and website should not be taken as medical advice.

[00:24:24] Every person's body is unique, so please consult your healthcare professional

[00:24:27] for any medical questions that may arise.

[00:24:30] Thanks for listening.